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Seraph
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:17 am Posts: 1507 Location: Either flying through the sky or in the Thousand Blossom Garden.
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Monster Creation Rules
The creation of Sole raised some ... shall I say interesting responses from mods that led to a brief discussion on what was or was not allowed as a Shokushu Monster. This ended when Stormbringer arrived and said with a minor modification (that had been done) he/it was fine. But this has raised a couple of things that I (and I'm sure others as well) would be interested in discussing in relation to Monster Creation. The rules that exist relating to monster Creation (as I can find them on the Message Board Rules page located here) are: Quote: 1) Monsters are just that - monsters. They are not cute and cuddly and they do not ask student's for dates except as a ruse to get the girl somewhere and rape her. Obviously such interaction with a student would mean the monster has a disguise or a human form or else the girl should run screaming. Note that having a human form or any sort of shapeshifting ability in a monster is in no way required to play here. Quote: 2) Monsters and students do NOT sit on a sofa kissing and cuddling. Students are terrified and monsters are aggressive. Monster's don't have to be mindless savages, but they aren't gentle and pleasant to be around. Students don't have to be hysterical with phobia, but they shouldn't be complacent either. It should be the same as if a wild animal suddenly came into a girl's room. She's not going to go "Ho hum, would you get out of here so I can do my homework." Quote: 3) Monsters are fantasy creatures. They are not large versions of any existing animal. They may demonstrate kinship with a known animal but must have enough differences that it is not in any way considered beastiality. Example: a monster related to a wolf but walking on two legs, wearing clothing, able to talk and hold items, showing other than animal intelligence etc. If we want to watch dogs fucking we can look out the window. We don't want it in here. The main point I would like to discuss is to what extent do these rules apply? As much as I hate raising up things that I feel skirt the edges of rules to properly understand I need to provide evidence of things that I feel already exist that skirt the edges of these rules. The first rule (as I see it translates to no human monsters) is blurred by four examples I have seen in my (rather brief) six months here. Natsuki, Calidare, Elizia and my own character Seraph. All three of these characters are very human in appearance most of the time. So at what point does human like in appearance cross the line drawn by the first rule? Would a character that looks exactly human in his/her/its true form, but acted like a monster and had some form of ability (either science or magic) that allowed him to create tentacles still be accepted? Is it as simple as adding tentacles (or the ability to create tentacles) or wings for a character's appearance to be OK? The second rule (as I see it translates to a student should be on edge the moment they encounter a monster in it's true form, regardless of their previous experience with monsters in general) is blurred by the Shokushu Pixies, and Orion. While seeing the pixies might be shocking to a student it wouldn't be enough to put them on edge, at least until the Pixies true nature revealed itself. Orion in general wouldn't put a student on edge at any point since meeting them. Both of these seem to act in defiance of the 'wild animal in your room' rule. The third and final rule (Which I originally assumed was to stop people rping as animals, but now I'm not as sure) was invoked, surprisingly enough, when the discussion of Sole was starting. (Bold added by me) Dawn Portman wrote: uhm...I don't mean to say but I believe you should change the body. Monsters are generally ok, but there are some hidden rules also you should know. A dragon on campus isn't something we had in mind, and I don't think a dragon raping a student feels right at all. if that picture is truly what you are talking about when you want others to think of how your character looks like, then you should change it. So please do so. I feel the bold statement draws upon the 3rd rule in that it implies a similar complaint will be raised against ANY monster that appears to be a dragon. (Although I will also ask why wasn't Rein's bodyguard also queried in this manner as he seems to be a dragon) So what does it mean by a fantasy monster? Two comparisons I can think of are Kharono and Kerith. Kharono is a cybernetic T-Rex, a real animal, and was not challenged. Would a Normal T-Rex be challenged and denied if it was proposed? Kerith is a Minotaur (A creature out of Greek mythology) with a cybernetic arm, Would a Minotaur (Differing from the T-Rex in that it has always been a fantasy monster) without a cybernetic arm be challenged under this rule or would it be accepted? Stormbringer also raised another point in the earlier discussion. That of science and magic. To what extent is magical abilities allowed/encouraged. Are they in fact, or are things meant to have a scientific explanation? There are a number of characters that seem to have near infinite capabilities due to magic (or something similar to it), and I freely include Seraph (Who has a mastery over all schools of magic and massive amounts of raw power to back up his skill) among them. Other examples include Natsuki (Able to shape reality at a whim up to the ability to resurrect the dead, as proven here), Calidare (Also has resurrection and the ability to create things out of thin air), Elizia (who is a goddess of magic, with all the options that such a position entails), and Spectre (Who is a being of magical Chaos). Finally I come to the no slavery rule. I am assuming that in the Slave Pens this rule does not exist, but on Shokushu I can think of 3 (well technically 4) cases of that are bordering this rule. These are Seraph & Ryu (Started here, continued here), Siferus & Diana (Started here, continued here) and finally Natsuki & Kanoe/ Clarice (Starting here, and continuing here with Clarice being added here) At what point would the relationships established and expanded upon in these threads cross the line? Is a promise made in ecstasy acceptable, if not under what conditions does it become acceptable? I've tried to be a neutral as possible in this, and have used my own actions and creations as well whenever they have moved close to (and perhaps even over) the lines established by these rules. So what are peoples opinions on all this? (oh and sorry about the long post for this. Feel free to discuss whatever part interests, or applies, to you and either ignore or get back to the others. I just felt that an opening for a discussion of this nature needs to have depth to allow proper discussion. If I missed any link to either a bio or a thread that someone feels should be added for clarification you can either post it yourself or just pm me and I will be happy to do so.) EDIT: This is in no way intended as an attack against anyone's character or their RP style and methodology. This is simply an attempt to spark debate and discussion as to the scope of the rules to try and create more accurate guidelines as to what can be created, what is encouriged to be created, and what rules govern behaviour. I freely include any of my own characters in this, and if anyone thinks any of them help allow accurate definition of rules than say so.
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Mon May 10, 2010 3:36 pm |
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PiaM.
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:09 pm Posts: 3942 Location: On a very scary island.
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
Those are a lot of big and heavy questions. I am not 100% sure I should butt in on this, before a mod/admin has their say. But still, I would like to offer my 100% subjective views on this, so here it goes.. As far as I see it, it is generally hard to pin down the exact limits of what falls under the rules and what does not when it comes to free form roleplaying (which is what we are doing here). One thing is the exact letter of the rules, another is what is the intention of the rules. On one hand, certain guidelines must exist to ensure a coherent theme, but on the other, one should not try to cut down on the creativity of the players. So far, it seems that SHS is pretty self-sufficient in this regard. I have not seen many (any?) examples of mods directly interfering in a thread, but I can't think of any examples of players that have been grossly neglecting the rules either. Personally, the only discussions I have had with others about if I have been in danger of violating the rules have been when I have myself asked for guidelines, either discussing it with my partners, PMing a mod or (in one case) putting it up for discussion in public. So far, all that have been asked have been very helpful. I appreciate that When it comes to what is a good monster, I think it is hard to pin down to a few traits. Rather, it is the totality that counts. It is just not limited to the profile, but even more importantly is how the monster works out in play. When it comes to how human or monstrous a monster needs to be, I think the closest I can get to an answer is that it should be able to make a girl feel like she has been utterly ravished by the end of the thread. I am not sure that can be expressed in terms of size and appearance alone. To take one example, my own pixies. I was unsure if they would work out well, but after putting a few of my ideas up for discussion, it seemed they were the most popular, so I went with it. The idea I had for them is that they were supposed to be whimsical and cute, but beneath the facade, devious, cruel, and sex crazed, thus providing the element of surprise. Did I succeed in this? I am not 100% sure, to be honest. You would have to ask my partners When it comes to the subject of slavery, my impression is that the no collaring rule is to prevent players from saying "I found her first, you cannot play with her",harbouring OOC jealousy and such. Mainly, I think the average SHSer is too mature to get into that, but in some internet communities that would pretty much be exactly what would happen. So it is probably a wise rule. That being said, slavery is one of the pretexts for the whole setting, and there are two areas, the slave pens and the basement dealing with slave/master relationships. So I don't see anything wrong with monsters exercising their dominance, as long as everyone is clear that this does not mean that one player "owns" another players character, and that using an ingame relationship to push away other players is unacceptable. This became a lot longer than intended, and maybe not all that clear. Sorry. TL;DR: Pia rambles a lot.
Pia thinks it is very hard to pin down what makes a good monster, but if it feels like a monster, it probably is a monster.
Pia also thinks monsters dominating girls are okay, as long as they keeps things IC and do not butt in on others' fun. I would also like to stress that these are just my personal thoughts. EDIT: Spelling, pruning, grammar and clarification.
_________________ Pia Marie Hov - Sophomore, just realizing how much trouble she is in.
The Shokushu Pixies
Striktor, undead pirate.
Astrid, red scarf of the Tramps.
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Mon May 10, 2010 4:46 pm |
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Diana Varnia
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:20 pm Posts: 1026
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
I sort of had my own doubts and fears via the guidelines when Siferus and I had our characters join in such a "relationship" (using the word rather loosely). But the thing is that our threads are relatively self contained, in that nothing that occurs in them will really affect others (for example, Diana has received no prominent tattoos, markings, gifts or any thing else of the sort to be marked as Siferus' slave publicly). Rather then truly being a "slave," I see it as more Siferus taking a preference for Diana (it feels like I'm talking in the third person here ) and him finding creative ways of subduing her "willingly" to his will. Blackmail being the first of what I hope to be several ways. The same goes for Clarice, Kanoe and Natsuki's thread, I think. It's relatively self contained, in that there's nothing in those threads that will truly affect the others (except for the clasps they wear on the braids, there is nothing that translates out of the threads). And I think a good bottom line for whether a monster is "monstrous" enough is defined by whether or not at the end of a thread a female character feels like she's been raped. If she wakes up the next day with that happy buzz you get after a good night out and that warm, fuzzy feeling when she thinks about next time, the monster is not monstrous enough. If she feels like she was taken advantage of in any way, forced to do something she didn't want to (mentally, at least, we all know how whimsical them bodies are) or was forced to do something she found embarrassing or demeaning, that's when we've got a monster. My two cents.
_________________ Diana Varnia Soft skinned and Paranoid Looking forward to some encounters of the tentacle variety.
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Mon May 10, 2010 10:45 pm |
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Stormbringer
Site Admin
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:08 pm Posts: 467
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
Obviously I've had my attention drawn to this but I don't want to come across as being too definitive in what I think on the subject. The roleplay here has largely developed without the need for a lot of rules but with the consent and cooperation of those playing within it. My own primary concern is to maintain the essential theme of Shokushu without getting too restrictive, so I try to avoid stepping in unless that loose envelope is being broken.
So aside from commenting on the intent of any rules, please take what I say as my opinion and don't let it stop you from differing or showing me where I'm wrong. Or where there's a better option.
OK with that out of the way, the background of the rules quoted:
1) This was a carry-over from IRC though it's still valid. Since everything pretty much happened in a single channel, it became common for monster and student characters to mix together. This led to an atmosphere which Niceman described as being more like a group of freshmen students trying to find dates for the prom than a place where aggressive monsters chased and subdued terrified students. So any 'normal' interaction between a monster and student would require that monster able to pass as human and in general monsters and students don't mix socially.
2) Is a carry-on from 1). Students got into the habit of seeing monsters as cuddly, strange looking creatures, who would laugh and joke with them in some sort of extra-terrestrial version of a camp-out.
3) Obviously that is again based upon wanting to stop certain behaviors which were occurring. It is also a consideration that bestiality is against the law in many places and violates the TOS of web hosting companies.
Now comments on those rules as they apply to the current game as it is played on this board:
1) Isn't really so important here because there is an easy separation between OOC and IC and because everything doesn't happen in a single combined forum. When scenes are set up in one area and run in their individual threads, there's a lot less opportunity for any communal IC situation where students and monsters sit around talking about the previous night's football game. It still stands that any casual contact between a student and a monster should require that monster able to pass as human.
2) and shading 1) also. Students remembering previous encounters with specific monsters, wouldn't be expected to get completely incredulous at seeing that monster again, or even by seeing a different one. But they still wouldn't see those encounters as being particularly casual or comfortable. They aren't like running into a vague acquaintance at the mall and chatting about the price of bread.
Monsters may not always appear threatening, even when obviously non-human but they should always evoke at least some sense of curiosity, caution, disbelief, surprise, etc. based upon their obviously not being either human or animal. If you came across fairies dancing in the woods, or a mermaid sitting on a rock you may not feel threatened but you also wouldn't be casual about it.
3) The intent is that any creation is clearly not fully human, even if capable of passing as one, and also clearly not any known animal. A human figure who can sprout tentacles is within those parameters so long as he plays the monster aspect (the Stormbringer character falls some way into this category so I have a degree of self-interest to declare). Any fantasy creature such as minotaur or satyr is clearly not a known animal and acceptable but a dog with a human intelligence is not.
I wouldn't limit by size on dragons or other such monsters but I do think they should play their limitations based upon that size. Dinosaurs are extinct so not considered to breach the bestiality rule but they should be something *more* than simply dinosaurs, since they would need to be capable of exhibiting intelligence and a desire to couple with human girls rather than eat them. In the case of both dragons and dinosaurs I would expect to see some body mods to make that coupling feasible as well as showing some initiative from their creators.
On more general topics, I naturally have opinions and to some degree these shade over into rules in cretain circumstances but I don't want to have everyone sit back and say 'SB has spoken so that's the end of it'. There's definitely room for ideas and discussion and there should be plenty of flexibility within any rules that are needed.
Slavery - the students belong to the school. That is the intent and that remains. A monster cannot claim to own a student, the school owns them. Within that hard and fast rule there is plenty of room for degrees of relationship if the monster and student wish to have her remember previous encounters. But a monster cannot claim to have exclusive use of a student, they can't be in a monogamous relationship (at least not a stated one; obviously if two characters only want to play with each other that is an OOC decision between them) and the monster cannot exert any control over a student which overrides the school's powers.
In mentioning any self-interest again, the Head Girls are considered akin to slaves of the Headmasters but that isn't a case of 'do as I say not as I do'. The HG's are a part of the school admin in much the same way as teachers, they still belong to the school, and they are not prevented from being attacked by other monsters.
Magic - it's always tempting to use this as an easy answer to everything but we've limited its effectiveness when used against the school, so it only really affects interaction between monster and student. That makes it largely self-governing to my mind. If it gets over-relied upon to short-cut the process of getting into a student's knickers then that makes for boring roleplay and no one will want to play with you. If it is used constructively in an entertaining way, then they will.
Science - obviously the school uses the concept of alien science (equivalent of future tech) to enable certain aspects of the background to roleplay, for example the inhibitors which reduce magical potential in students. It also features heavily in the Labs. And of course, since monsters are considered to be alien races then it is expected they have access to science beyond that current to Earth. When you evoke science though, I feel it should have some basis within the physical restrictions of reality and its ability to warp them. As Arthur C Clarke said, to a primitive race, science is indistinguishable from magic. But unlike magic, which may not exist, science still has its boundaries.
Shapeshifting - mentioned in a recent discussion along with my opinion that such an ability would not necessarily be capable of altering mass. A medium sized monster should reasonably be expected to morph into a couch. But a gnat? Or the Empire State Building? That seems to me to abuse the concept that the *shape* has *shifted*. So as I said before, to me, abusing science for the purposes works best when there is some consideration given to how such things may be achieved. Otherwise it's alongside magic in that you wave the wand of future tech to gain an ability which doesn't hold up to even casual scrutiny.
Religion - I prefer to consider this a non-topic and have posted on it before. The visitors to SHS are alien races. They don't sprout out of a crack in the earth dripping lava and surrounded by a cloud of sulphorous gases. They don't come from hell and they don't come from heaven. They come from another planet but they *may* be a part of a race which visited the Earth in pre-history and from which a mythology about divine or demonic beings was shaped.
That'll do from me for now. It may not cover everything but this is very much intended as a part of a discussion, not laying down the law here. I want people to get involved in any conventions which may become established because this is *your* playground. I may guard the fence but I don't want to have to tell you exactly how to play within it.
_________________ Masochist "Whip me! Whip me!" Sadist "No!"
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Tue May 11, 2010 1:40 pm |
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Ike Haw
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 5:15 pm Posts: 1124
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
I think it depends on what kind of monster you are talking about in general. To me male monsters shouldn't look that human, but there is no distinction between human and non human here. Female monsters though can be considered evil versions of the sexy female aliens the school has. At least that is my personal view on female monsters, since the SFA can't interact with the university. I don't see the relationship between siferus and diana or the relationship between claire, kanoe, and natsuki, as slavery. Let me put my reasoning behind it in this way when it comes to that. In hypotheses lets say the university houses 300,000 students at any one time. At any given time let us say only 1-5 percent of the student population is allowed to be raped. This means at any given time 3,000 - 15,000 students are allowed to be raped on a daily bases. The exception to this being the school prom. The point is the monsters are patrons to the university which is a sort of sex resort for them. The 3,000 to 15,000 students on the list of victims is the main attraction. At points you can consider the students who are raped in a said service role. Think of the service role as being a maid or waitress more prominently the maid fits best.
In the case of diana, claire and kanoe they can be considered to be the maids. In the case of siferus and natsuki they can be seen as the employer. The maids will work for an employer for however long they want to, and if they want to leave there is nothing stopping them. There is a catch to this in a normal maid and employer relationship the maid normally gets a payment. Obviously that isn't the case here where all the student gets is raped. There are those odd ball cases where a student my have a rape fetish, and those cases where a student gets off on being submissive. There is nothing keeping a student from ignoring a notice sent to there dorm room about showing up at a certain place at a certain time. We'll maybe except for the fact that they have to deal with the basement, or a pissed off monster in the end.
On the front of monsters using magic, as an end to get into students pants. I'll use my own monster destra to give my opinion on the matter. Destra is a succubus, and as all succubus are they are sex addicts or at least very horny. When I heard about the no religion bases rule Destra changed in a bit. The change was mostly to her background where she became a human that was infected by another succubus, and hence became a succubus herself. The planet the original succubus come from is known as hellios, which by description would seem like hell to a human. A succubus life span is also extremely long, so that's why a human would see them as immortal. The magic she uses is more based on seduction with a few tentacle summoning spells thrown in.
The magic is powered from what could be called mana, or life energy to the succubus. Over eons of studying this energy source the succubus learned how to control, and hence evolved based on the ability to control mana. They also used various symbols to restrict or contain creatures on their home planet. Let me deviate on this because its important in some ways. A human may hold a certain belief in a religious item that might be seen to ward of demons. The amount of belief represents the amount of mana placed into the object. For instance in one thread Destra was going to rape a priestess and she was wearing her priestess outfit, and carrying a religious book around. In this scenario the clothes along made it rather uncomfortable for destra to be around the girl. This was due to religious symbols on various parts of the outfit. The text on the other hand was a different story, as in on instance it touched destra and she was sent flying across the room.
This is where those tentacle summoning spells come in handy. They can be used to restrain a student, while they are striped of any object keeping destra at bay. This is because the tentacles are not effected by such symbols. Its to be noted if a person has no faith in a religious object it won't have any protective properties. Her second type of magic is seductive based. What this means is destra can influence a students mood by increasing there libdo, making them feel aroused, increased sensitivity those kind of things. They only work though if the student is all ready in the mindset or can easily be influenced in that direction. After all part of seduction is making the seducty believe its there choice, or natural state of mind. Why destra has items like the demonic panties, bra and pendent to help in those areas. Her third and possibly most original and powerful is a mirror dimension. The dimension reflects a students sexual fantasies, as used on one student to bring their fantasy of lesbian wrestling to life. Everything in the dimension is real, and destra takes a prominent role in these fantasies as a component. Like with her seduction magic she can't drastically change the situation to a point where it becomes unbelievable, and has to play the role she is given. Although most of these fantasy scenarios put her in the domination role. I've rambled on enough, so I'll just leave you to mull over what I've said.
Note: The way I have destra set up is no way intended to influence how other people play succubus characters, so don't take my example of destra, as how succubus characters are supposed to be played.
_________________ Students: Yoko Nakakouji, Sara Houjou Campus Monster: Aisaka Arena Monster: LX Story Index: Yoko's encounters
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Tue May 11, 2010 6:47 pm |
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Siferus
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:16 pm Posts: 1549 Location: Stalking another student...Maybe even you.
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
Okie dokie. I noticed my name mentioned in the first post of this particular thread, so I feel the need to come up with some attempt at a rebuttal, though I know there was no hostile intent. I only merely wish to explain my standpoint on this matter. First, I know that I am merely a player and low on the totem pole and completely insignificant on how things are run on the grand scale (that's the mods and admins job. A job they do well, I might add.) But, I am the kind of player that likes to "test the waters" as it be and see what I can and cannot do. I'm perfectly satisfied with the creative freedom that I have to play with here, so I don't forsee any more "pushing the envelope" coming on my part.
As far as my RP's go, I don't have my character claim any exclusivity over any student. In the case of Diana, I actually consulted a moderator on the subject before going forward with it (I believe it was Madison, but don't quote me on it.) and they told me that the setup that I have with her is acceptable after a little tweaking. I have noticed that a few, hell most of my RP's tend to run together and I do that intentionally. I like setting things up so that if anyone were to be so inclined, they could read my RP's as if it were one long story, a history of sorts.
I've been speaking with one of the site admins, who happens to be a friend of mine (identity being kept secret out of respect) and she agrees with what I have been saying here. My characters repeated attacks against certain students (Clarice, Kanoe, Diana Varnia) are merely cases of "I enjoyed that, so I'll go back for more" more than anything else. I hope that my explanation here has put everyone into my twisted mind for just a few moments.
_________________ PM me if you're interested in a Roleplay.
Siferus Darkcrown: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3579
Everyone's favorite spider monster has come home. I'm always looking for more interesting students or female monsters to ra...play with. Send me a PM, don't be shy, I don't bite. Unless you want me to, that is.
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Tue May 11, 2010 9:05 pm |
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Stormbringer
Site Admin
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:08 pm Posts: 467
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
I hope this thread doesn't end up as no more than players defending or explaining their own creations. The point of it when Seraph started and I replied, was to have a wider understanding of how monsters work generally within the game and outlines of what restrictions should govern their creation and actions.
So let's see more opinions on that subject because any reference to specific characters is only for illustration, not an attack on their creators.
_________________ Masochist "Whip me! Whip me!" Sadist "No!"
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Wed May 12, 2010 12:57 pm |
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Seraph
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:17 am Posts: 1507 Location: Either flying through the sky or in the Thousand Blossom Garden.
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
I should probably state that I tend to be a stickler for rules (although not as 'bad' as Leriana is, thankfully) and in a mostly self regulating community (In a good way. Some of the 'self-regulating' communities out there are horrible) such as Shokushu strict rules can actually be a bad thing as it stifles creativity and options.
In my opinion the most crucial part of any monster character, or any character to be honest, is the thought that went behind it and the amount of information contained in the bio. I understand that some people prefer to flesh out their characters in rps, and I know I do that myself as well. I would think that no character concept, no matter how complex and complete you try to make it, remains unchanged when you start using it. Especially when it is your first time writing about the subject matter in question. I'll use my own character Seraph, who has evolved and changed after the first few rps, and the others that followed, as I determined what about him I like, what I don't and what I forget (his 'vision' limitations are an example of something that, while interesting, I have to remind myself about constantly) But the more information available the more likely people (ok I'm assuming others are like me in this regard) are to RP with you. Than again I also enjoy making stuff like characters up for fun, so I'm probably rather unusual in the regard that I am quite happy to spend days mulling over a concept before even starting to write it up.
In regards to the slavery I have never even considered the 'only one monster can use enslaved student' variation that the rule was designed to stop. It did cause some confusion to me in that the only real idea I could come up with as what was meant by the no slavery rule was something that happened, so actually having it clarified properly is a fairly nice relief.
Perhaps a better idea (When one takes into account the general maturity and narrative abilities of those at Shokushu) than trying to identify a number of rules is simply set a very broad series of complete no-go areas (with no to minor areas of grey. Examples are the rules that never seem to be questioned and the general monsters are not human and are generally interested in raping students.) In addition to these maybe come up with a series of guidelines that is something a new monster creater should read through, but is under no obligation to follow if they are determined to do something that doesn't quite match up, or have an idea they think is better.
Any thoughts/opinions on that idea?
Also I must say that the rules seem to be a bit all over the place at the moment. It took me a while to find the 'monsters should be based in science' request/rule (at which point I added the NICE labs portion of Seraph's bio), and when I was doing the OP for this I couldn't find it again. I know it's there somewhere, I just couldn't find it again. Maybe when/if this discussion runs it course the rules page should be updated and/or a Monster creation specific page/sticky should be created.
_________________ Seraph's Bio and for those interested in just what Seraph has been entertained by The Darklight Grimore, Chapter 6
For those in space Yautja is on the prowl for new trophies
For a list of my chars go to here
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Wed May 12, 2010 3:29 pm |
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PiaM.
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:09 pm Posts: 3942 Location: On a very scary island.
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
I do have some thought about shape shifting. These are not specifically aimed at SHS, but rather because the subject have popped up in pretty much every tabletop RPG campaign where this is possible and that I have been in I have come to to think of shape shifting in two (maybe three) separate ways. One is low-magic shape shifting. This is the use of shape shifting when the one changing isn't supposed to be a powerful mage, or where shape changing is done by non-magical means (e.g. nanites re-assembling the body). In this case, mass should remain the same, unless the shifter can absorb or expel matter. The would also have roughly the same chemical components. That is, organic matter cannot change into metal, for instance, unless the shape shifter is able to manipulate its atoms, the latter making it rather high powered. Another, more high-magic approach is that the shape changer can convert mystical power into matter and the other way around. In that case, when decreasing size, excess weight can be converted into magical force. Mass can also be created by converting mystic energy into matter. This also implies that the shifter should, at least theoretically be able to create objects from thin air. This is obviously in the area of high powered magical beings. One other approach that was voiced in one campaign was that shape shifting is related to dimensional travel. The shape changer has several, connected bodies, but they do not exist in the same dimensions at the same time. When the shape shifter changes shape, it is actually swapping one body for another, stuffing the other one in another dimension. This implies that the creature is able to move out of our part of space-time. This was used to explain how a specific vampire could change into a bat, then change into a humanoid wearing clothes and a weapon, AFAIK. These are just my general ideas of shape changing. How each individual shape changer works depends upon the individual monster, of course.
_________________ Pia Marie Hov - Sophomore, just realizing how much trouble she is in.
The Shokushu Pixies
Striktor, undead pirate.
Astrid, red scarf of the Tramps.
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Wed May 12, 2010 5:12 pm |
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Stormbringer
Site Admin
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:08 pm Posts: 467
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
Good points about shapeshifting and I don't disagree with them at all. It's just that in an open roleplay where anyone can play the queen of the galaxy or the ultimate badass from the planet xurgle, the temptation is to create characters that have limitless powers. It's a trait most often seen in rather poor freeform fantasies where just about every character is the excommunicated son of a king who has mastered every fighting technique and every branch of magic to the nth degree.
It tends to make for very two-dimensional characters. So what I was trying to suggest here, without being too heavy handed about it, was that voluntarily placing limitations on creations alongside their abilities makes for more interesting roleplay and more inventiveness is required to trap the students.
And to reply to Seraph, once things have been decided maybe it would be best to have the results here on the board in the getting started forum so they will be easy to find?
_________________ Masochist "Whip me! Whip me!" Sadist "No!"
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Thu May 13, 2010 1:32 pm |
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Seraph
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:17 am Posts: 1507 Location: Either flying through the sky or in the Thousand Blossom Garden.
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
*whistles 'innocently' at the mention of creating a character with near limitless power*
@Stormbringer: By that do you mean the How it Works forum? It could be put there, or maybe in the new monster forum itself to ensure that anyone who makes a new monster will at least look in the same forum as it. Both have advantages and I would assume very little difference.
Despite my own (bias I will admit) views on the matter I do agree that having a monster that has a wide variety of capabilities can provide for an entertaining scene. Of course it also depends on where your monster is to be used. Using my own characters as an example I would never seriously consider taking Seraph off of Shokushu, he isn't meant to be balanced or fair or offer any real chance of fighting back. Hence for my monsterous space adventures I have Yautja and the Midrozi Clan (Both of which are much more 'balanced' and suit the space scene).
In regards to shapeshifting I have had a character (well technically an entire race) that were shapeshifters and were capable of storing raw biomass inside another dimension, which they could put or remove biomass from at will. Essentially it is a more scientific version of the 'high-magic' shapeshifter that gets fused with the alternate dimension shapeshifter.
Pure scientific shapeshifting is complicated. You have the 'Where does all the mass actually go?' question. Plus I would think you would have to enter some form of neutral state to shift, and during the shift itself things would be ... nasty. What happens if something you shift into something with less matter than you started out with? How is the excess dumped? Or is it stored somewhere? Explaining shapeshifting purely via science is almost impossible without it being ridiculously overpowered or purely cosmetic. (Skin, hair, eye colour change for example)
So unless you want to get very technical anyone who wants to shapeshift while making perfect, or near perfect, scientific sense generally has to have some form of magic, or magic like ability. Take the Midrozi for instance. The Hunter caste can pretend to be someone else, but their actual body does not change. It is simply an illusion, they make everyone else think they are a human, rather than change themselves into one.
_________________ Seraph's Bio and for those interested in just what Seraph has been entertained by The Darklight Grimore, Chapter 6
For those in space Yautja is on the prowl for new trophies
For a list of my chars go to here
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Thu May 13, 2010 4:46 pm |
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Madison
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 2:07 am Posts: 2014 Location: *Classified*
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
Well, for Madison, since she's now a slimegirl, when she has to change her shape, her mass stays about the same, but her core density will change. And because she still needs a human apperance, well...that's what holograms are for. If someone touched her, they would more then likely notice that she is squishy.
_________________ Many claim they wish to destroy their enemies. If this were true, most would be compelled to destroy themselves. --Abbess Helena the Virtuous, Dark Adeptus.[ Reminder: Madison's Mod-post color is Orange. When you see her post in this color, it'd be best to pay attention.
Now on Discord, flarecobra#8525
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Thu May 13, 2010 7:41 pm |
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Calidare
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 8:44 am Posts: 1376
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
Hmm well Madison, I thought all Ladies kind of feel Squishy unless they have Silicon Implants heh
_________________ Calidare Bio
Calidare Art Gallery
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Fri May 14, 2010 1:29 am |
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Madison
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 2:07 am Posts: 2014 Location: *Classified*
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
I'm talking, like if you grab her arm.
_________________ Many claim they wish to destroy their enemies. If this were true, most would be compelled to destroy themselves. --Abbess Helena the Virtuous, Dark Adeptus.[ Reminder: Madison's Mod-post color is Orange. When you see her post in this color, it'd be best to pay attention.
Now on Discord, flarecobra#8525
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Fri May 14, 2010 2:30 am |
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Stormbringer
Site Admin
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:08 pm Posts: 467
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Re: Monster Creation Rules
Yeah that's my point really. It's a lot easier to use the cover of pseudo-science or magic if the end result sounds like it might be achievable. And having something shape shift into something else of roughly the same mass is a lot easier to believe than having an elephant change into a mouse.
_________________ Masochist "Whip me! Whip me!" Sadist "No!"
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Fri May 14, 2010 10:45 am |
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